Curse

Lordhelmos · Dec 12, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I would go so far as to call this the best self heal in the game. However, mystic regen is getting heavy abuse from other classes using it with a minimal point allocation in earth prayers. Smiting monks, invincible stoneflesh and searing eles, and what not are running rampant around in RA and TA with +9 regen. For a secondary class, having +9 regen stacked on top of stoneflesh aura or a ton of maintained enchantments can let ANY class tank.

Mystic Regeneration is TOO good to be abused as a secondary like that. No other heal in the game can be used as effectively without at least a decent amount of points in the secondary attribute.

I propose that Mystic Regeneration be moved into Mysticism, to prevent its abuse from other classes and to keep it on Dervish primaries. This is the backbone heal of the dervish class and if it is nerfed in any way the class will be completely gimped and unable to survive on the front line. However, I do not think invinci-eles and Mo/D should be running around unkillable with this skill, especially since it can be stacked with protection prayers and ele armor spells.

Dervish HAVE to allocate a minimum of 8 in earth prayers as it is, and if the skill was moved into mysticism there would be more build flexibility with the dervish class (i.e. more people using wind prayers and perhaps even skills from a secondary class.) The point spread needed to run an effective dervish is hurting as it is.

This would also prevent the skill's abuse from other classes, such as the aforemented eles that can just stack aura on it as a mask, or monks playing god mode with protection prayers.

Allowing any class to stack +9 regen instantly is broken imo, especially with the spells instant cast and 5 second recharge. However, gimp any of the spell's properties and you kill the dervish class.

Anyone that has encountered a searing or stoneflesh E/D knows what im talking about.

>Mods move this to sanitarium please. Meant to post it in there.

noocoo · Dec 12, 2006, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I couldnt agree with you anymore.

That was exactly what I was thinking about when I tried E/D with mystic regen and stoneflesh aura.

ss1986v2 · Dec 12, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

/signed

just seems to make more sense in the mysticism line.

Lordhelmos · Dec 12, 2006, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Yeah I run a stoneflesh/armor of earth sandstorm ele in RA. After my 7th glad point... I just can't help but feel that mystic regen doesn't belong there.

I will once again say the effect of this skill is just way too strong to be used effectively with anything other than a dervish. (because dervish actually need it and self balance the skill with self rending, enchantment balancing, and a low armor.)

It's just not right to see a monk or ele walking through flames, bleed, be poisoned and diseased, and stacked with life transfer just stand there and laugh at you with +3 regen.

Searing Flames eles abusing this is just plain rediculous. With an attunement and aura of restoration you can have +9 regen FOREVER and still spam searing flames while getting life an energy back with each cast. One fire ele tanking 2 warriors and torching everything with searing flames is not a picture that looks right. Assassins can also stack this on things like way of perfection and other deadly/shadow arts enchantments while still dealing massive melee damage with dagger strikes.

This skill being in earth prayers just offsets the entire balance of squishy classes by turning them into damage tanks.

Degen? Whats that?

The only counter to this is a full rend or to diversion off the mystic regen. Searing flames is fine as it is, but having +9 regen and gaining 60 HP a cast while churning out that much DPS in a 4v4 is just plain crazy.

Keep mystic regen on dervishes where it belongs. No other squishies need to be tanking like this, especially not searing flames eles and prot spirt/spirit bond invincimonks.

Dutch Masterr · Dec 12, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

to be honest, i could even see this as an elite skill--im not going to say i was the first one to do it, but way before ive seen the stoneflesh+mystic regen tanks, i figured it out. after about a week of using it and not seeing anyone else doing it, i saw tons and tons of people running an identical build to mine. now its just getting old. i got sick of it because i hate predictable builds that the majority of guild wars uses--(sf eles, hh wammos, echo ss, burning arrow ranger..etc). its getting to the point where no matter what character im using, even a tank, im going to start bringing at least 1 enchant removal skill. another option instead of moving it to mysticism, is nerf it a bit so you need to have higher than 8 earth prayers to get the +3 regen. this would be just as balanced with derv too, because then not every single dervish will almost invincilble and most dervish have high earth prayers anyway. im not going to lie, i love the skill but it needs a nerf.

Lavindathar · Dec 12, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Definately agree with this one.

/signed.

Lordhelmos · Dec 12, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Upping the requirement higher in earth prayers will kill dervs. Besides Mystic Regen and Conviction, dervs have no solid defense. Dervish are forced to self rend the skill with their attacks and also run 24-30 energy with a scythe. With a cost of 10, its already balanced for a dervish (even with high mysticism it's hard to maintain without sacrificing a window to attack or to use in place of a 10 cost enchantment like heart of holy flame). The signet of pious light + vital boon combo is also too slow to save you in a bind. (70 AL is ouch!)

As it is now the point spread for a dervish is already difficult and most are running 2 superior runes just to deal damage and get that 8 in earth prayers. I would would say:

Move Mystic Regeneration into Mysticism and reduce the scale of the skill to go:

lvls: 1-5 +1
lvls: 6-11 +2
lvls: 12-16: +3

Max it out at +3, because dervs have high mysticism as part of their nature, the regen of the skill should never go past 3. Without mystic regen how else are dervish going to survive? Spam vital boon and signet of pious light and have no time to attack?

It is much easier to kill a derv running mystic regen because dervs constantly lose enchantments, they are not at +9 all the time and when they use a self rend, they lose 3 regen for each enchantment they sacrifice. This is more than fair.

However a searing flames ele has two attunments that last 60 seconds, which gives them permanent +9 regen. And a monk casting protective spirit already has +6 regen and a massive damage reduction.

Its obvious that Mystic Regen is overpowered when mixed with long lasting damage reduction enchantments outside of the dervish line. If it were in mysticism, it would stay unabused and dervish would still have decent survival potential.

Lordhelmos · Dec 12, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

to be honest, i could even see this as an elite skill--im not going to say i was the first one to do it, but way before ive seen the stoneflesh+mystic regen tanks, i figured it out. after about a week of using it and not seeing anyone else doing it, i saw tons and tons of people running an identical build to mine. now its just getting old. i got sick of it because i hate predictable builds that the majority of guild wars uses--(sf eles, hh wammos, echo ss, burning arrow ranger..etc). its getting to the point where no matter what character im using, even a tank, im going to start bringing at least 1 enchant removal skill. another option instead of moving it to mysticism, is nerf it a bit so you need to have higher than 8 earth prayers to get the +3 regen. this would be just as balanced with derv too, because then not every single dervish will almost invincilble and most dervish have high earth prayers anyway. im not going to lie, i love the skill but it needs a nerf.

Actually most dervish run 8 earth prayers just for this skill. To be an effective dervish you need 12 in mysticism to manage forms and energy, and 12-16 in scythe mastery if you play melee. We stack major or even in my case 2 superior runes just to balance out offense, mystic regen, and energy management. It's a tight squeeze. Like I said, up the requirment with a nerf and dervish willl have nowhere to pull the points from in order to use this skill effectively, thus dervish will turn into assassins as far as survival goes, have extremely weak melee prowess, or have no energy and a 30 second form.

Aka, one dead class.

If mystic regen was in mysticism with a cap of +3, I could run a decent dervish that wouldnt be so overpowered. Why? Because as I pointed out before, dervish need to LOSE enchantments to gain energy and whenever a dervish loses one, 3 regen goes bye bye from mystic regen. You cant make an invincible derv off mystic regeneration because 10 is a hellava cost for a 25 energy dervish pool, and if you maintain mystic regen -along with all your enchantments to power it, you will have no way to get your energy back from mysticism and vegetate in the middle of the battle like a mushroom.

As a dervish it is extremely hard to balance the +9 at all times with three enchantments without self rending to recharge your energy pool for attacks and whatnot. Dervish regen from mystic regeneration is constantly jumping up and down because of the enchantment ending and recasts.

Ironically dervish use this skill to the LEAST of its potential because of the contant enchantment sacrfices the class makes in order to function. For a dervish you have to sit there and decide what to rend off in order to get the energy back so you can cast it, and once that is done you have to stack another enchantment on it before using something like twinmoon sweep or irresistable sweep just so you dont self rend it on accident.

Thats 10 energy for mystic regeneration, 5 for something like aura of thorns to stack on it, then another 5 for a scythe attack. ~This is not easy for a dervish to manage with 26-30ish max energy, which is why the class takes skill to play.

For an elementalist with 90 energy, throwing out mystic regen and aura on top of it is just a ripple in the pool and an effortless +6 regen.

Crom The Pale · Dec 12, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Nerf yet another skill......

Why is it that when ever somebody comes up with a way to use a skill from there secondary people start to call for nerfs??

There are more than enough counters to enchantments, next thing youll be saying protective spirit should be nerfed. My war uses Armor of Earth is that an abuse?

Not every dervish build uses Mysticsm, to push the skill there could upset a lot of dervish builds. Add to the fact that youd then have the ability to have high regen + the fast self heals of wind prayers.

Over half the monk healing skills could be moved to the Divine attribute for the same reasons your listing for Mystic Regeneration.

Don't nerf a skill because you dislike how people are using it, find a way to beat them with better counters.

/unsigned

Epinephrine · Dec 12, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Crom, you unsign every skill change. It's short sighted and frankly a poor principle to try to stick to. Some skills can be adjusted by introducing other counters and such, some things simply need nerfing.

I haven't examined it closely, but it struck me as being a rather powerful heal for any class that enchant stacks, and I agree that it fits better in Mysticism. I worry that it'll be too easy to get, since you don't need to spread points as much, but moving it and rebalancing it would work.

Sable Phoenix · Dec 12, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Mystic Regeneration isn't all THAT great. It requires a pretty significant amount of your build to be devoted solely to it, and can easily be completely negated by conditions and hexes, not to mention enchantment removal. Additionally, regen is much less effective than spike heals, armor or protection enchantments versus spikes or high-pressure damage. It's awesome if you're not getting hit much, but it won't let you sit there and take it forever when you are.

The Ernada · Dec 12, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Crom this isnt a petition for a "nerf" at least not if you're playing a Dervish. Moving it to Mysticism makes plenty of sense. It's too good in the hands of other classes but much needed by the Dervish. Please think about things before you scream against "nerfs"

Zuranthium · Dec 12, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

This thread is way funny.

Keep talking, Lordhelmos, keep on talking.

~Z

ericdanie · Dec 12, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

/signed

That is completely right.

Anyone with Dervish secondary alocating 8 ranks into Earth Prayers giving a 20 second enchantment that can give +9 health regeneration easily is way too overpowered. It makes the real ones that need self-healing, the real "combat" professions Warrior, Ranger, Paragon and Assassin, with their self-heals Healing Signet (-40 Armor, 2 sec cast), Lion's Confort (Adrenaline Based, Inviable Signet use), Troll Unguent (3 sec cast, 10 sec duration only and has 10 sec recharge), Shadow Refuge (is not meant to be kept up at all times, requires high attribute to "tank" with), Leader's Confort (2 sec cast, needs allies to be powerful plus a decent attribute location). Now compare all these with Potential Infinite Health Regen, 20 sec duration with 5 sec recharge with an 1/4 cast time.

Don't mess with the progression, just link it to Mysticism instead of Earth Prayers, and MAYBE make the duration variable to something like 5..15 seconds.

Nilator · Dec 12, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Mystic Regeneration
Mysticism

IMO, it should have been in Mysticism in the first place. I mean c'mon they both have Mystic in them.

aohige · Dec 12, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

The OP's proposition isn't a nerf.
Having it in Mysticism can actually work well in favor for Dervish.
Those with secondary D may not be able to use it as efficiently as before, but because of the above reasoning, I wouldn't call it a nerf, just a balance "tweak".

Epinephrine · Dec 12, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nilator

Mystic Regeneration
Mysticism

IMO, it should have been in Mysticism in the first place. I mean c'mon they both have Mystic in them.

Lol, yeah, the spirit Restoration is a little out of place in Communing, while they're at it.

Lordhelmos · Dec 12, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sable Phoenix

Mystic Regeneration isn't all THAT great. It requires a pretty significant amount of your build to be devoted solely to it, and can easily be completely negated by conditions and hexes, not to mention enchantment removal. Additionally, regen is much less effective than spike heals, armor or protection enchantments versus spikes or high-pressure damage. It's awesome if you're not getting hit much, but it won't let you sit there and take it forever when you are.

Enchantment removal? It has a 5 second recharge. Also aura of restoration can cover it easily, not to mention is building off all the other prots being thrown on the target. With armor of earth/stoneflesh aura you already have a +9 regen 120 armor tank that isnt going to be stopped by anything less than a full rend or mesmer. One extra enchantment on your bar isnt much devotion for 20 seconds of instant +6 regen.

On its own, its not a big deal its +3 regen. But you have to take into account what its being stacked with. Stoneflesh aura and mystic regen can be a big deal. There are many many armor buff/damage prevention spells in the game that can be used to play off of the skill's potent effects.

Windborne Speed
Armor of Frost
Protective Spirit
Shield of Regeneration
X Attunement
Aura of Restoration
Stoneflesh Aura
Armor of Earth
Sliver Armor
Obsidian Flesh (farming anyone?)
Flame Djin's Haste
Burning Speed (burn for free!)
Feigned Neutrality (god thats alot of life)

Just to name a few. I personally feel that the skill shouldn't be in earth prayers. Yes I do have a problem with SF eles tanking. E/D mystic sear teams are not fun backed by a Zb monk and a spirit spammer. And yes I do run the builds myself. I argue against it because, SFing or Sandstorming with Mystic Regen is just so damn easy and now that people are figuring it out, RA and TA are flooded with them. What am I going to do? Shatter enchant mystic regen only to rend off the aura or have him recast it in 5 seconds while my shatter recharges for 20 ~while im being set on fire and getting pelted with 120+ fire damage every 4 seconds?

Mystic Regen does not require alot of devotion to be effective. One enchant is all you need and its +6 regen in a split second for 20 seconds. It simply dwarfs any other regenerative heal in the game by a huge margin. Why bring troll when you have this?

20 seconds of +9 regen that can be recast in 1/4 second before its duration ends on a caster is an extremely powerful effect. Mystic Regen IMO is a survival skill that should be used on the front line by dervishes in the fray trading blows and being bled, poisoned, and burning while fighting into the backline. It shouldnt be a cheap easy life spam for a caster in the back healing the team or an ele bombarding foes while having an insanely powerful self defense that will just stop attackers once they get to him anyway.

Under one attunement, prot spirit cast from a zb monk, and on its own mystic regeneration stops burning/bleeding/and a warrior wailing on the target. You cant tell me thats something you can just look over.

Yes... yes it is THAT great. But it should be limited to the class that can use it fairly, the dervish. Why? Because theres no way a dervish can keep Mystic Regen up indefinitely due to energy restrictions and enchant loss.

~~~

Also on a further note, moving the skill into mysticism would be better for a Dervish. You have your backbone survival skill in your primary skill tree. Wind Prayers anyone?

As a scythe wielding Dervish you have to:

~Deal damage with your melee weapon. (req.12+ scythe)
~Survive frontline Condtions (degen, hexes, melee hate). (survival skills with a quick cost and potent effect, as in mystic regen)
~Make it to a target and stay on them (snare and movement skills)
~Manage your energy with enchantments (run 2-3 enchantments)

You have to satisfy all these with 7 skill slots (with a rez) and 200 attribute points. 12 goes into scythe, 12 in mysticism just to deal damage and manage your energy pool. If mystic regen was in mysticism, you wouldnt have to dump points into earth prayers and instead be able to bring things like harriers haste, harrier's grasp, pious renewal, featherfoot grace, etc. WITHOUT sacrificing your frontline survivability.

Vital Boon
Signet of Pious Light
Mystic Regeneration
Conviction

Are ALL in the earth prayer line. I mean come on without mystic regen in mysticism you WILL DIE without putting some points into earth. And when you do that, unless your running a 2 superiors or majors, your scythe or your energy pool will suffer. Having mystic regeneration in mysticism not only stops the abuse, but it also grants those who want to take the wind prayers route some survivability. Because without earth prayers a Dervish will not and cannot survive up front with those thin 70 AL robes.

Right now as a Dervish I feel forced to take the earth prayers path just to keep myself alive. However, mystic regen in mysticism can change all that. We might actually see some decently surviving dervs running featherfoot grace and some wind prayers out on the front.

As of now without earth prayers, dervs are assassins with no shadow steps and a scythe, as I stated before. It wouldnt to hurt to have at least one good heal in the primary line to give the class some flexibility. I think we would all like to use some wind prayers without dropping dead under pressure.

The earth prayer line is just too good, and too vital NOT to be a primary line. It needs to share the love. Not all us dervish have the points to spread between wind and the much needed survival skills hogged by earth prayers (oh wait... NONE of us do). Earth Prayers itself is a line congested by vital skills.

You just have to love how eles and monks can use our best survival skill better than we can.

Former Ruling · Dec 12, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Funniest thing in this thread:

Quote:

To be an effective dervish you need 12 in mysticism to manage forms and energy, and 12-16 in scythe mastery if you play melee. We stack major or even in my case 2 superior runes just to balance out offense, mystic regen, and energy management. It's a tight squeeze.

I found this funny.

I agree MR is alittle crazy though, mostly because its duration is so long compared to recharge though.

Count to Potato · Dec 13, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Only makes sense, /signed